Hello Bob,



You posted:



BB:>>Depending on your specific definition usage of the word "token," I am intellectually uncomfortable with it. If your definition usage were to imply only symbolism, which I doubt it does, I might be lead to think you are suggesting that our present godly attributes, fully possessed now (Eph. 3:17b-19; 4:11-13; Col. 2:9-10), are merely symbolic, as opposed to real. And, thus the real thing will be inherited in heaven. So, what do you mean by token?>>



DW: By ?token?, I do not intend symbolism at all, but rather am using the term in a very realistic sense. I am using ?token? in the sense of partial. Though the Godly attributes that have been bestowed upon believers are by their very nature fully divine in and of themselves, in this life/economy (oikonomia) our current nature restricts their full manifestation. We are, IMHO, once again dealing with the? now-yet future? motif. We have been sanctified and yet we are growing in sanctification; we have been made holy and yet are growing in holiness; we have been glorified, and yet a future glorification awaits us; we have eternal life, yet we shall die and await resurrection and immortality; we have been made complete, and yet shall be made complete; we have been seated with Christ and yet in the future shall actually be seated on God?s throne. In a nut-shell, we have been transformed, yet are being transformed, and in the future (heaven) shall be fully transformed.



Once again, here are a few verses I feel demonstrate the past/now/future motif:



2 Cor. 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.



[And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. (RSV)]



NAS 2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.



NAS Romans 8:17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him.



NAS Hebrews 12:14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. [KJV Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord?]



NAS 1 John 3:3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.



NAS Philippians 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.



NAS Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it, or have already become perfect, but I press on in order that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.



NAS James 1:4 And let endurance have its perfect result, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.



NAS 2 Peter 3:18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.



NAS 1 Peter 5:10 And after you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.



NAS Colossians 3:10 and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him



NAS Ephesians 4:24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.



NAS Isaiah 1:16 ?Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil??



NAS Deuteronomy 10:16 ?Circumcise then your heart, and stiffen your neck no more.?



NAS Jeremiah 4:4 ?Circumcise yourselves to the LORD And remove the foreskins of your heart, Men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, Lest My wrath go forth like fire And burn with none to quench it, Because of the evil of your deeds.?



NAS Matthew 19:21 Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."



NAS 2 Corinthians 13:9 For we rejoice when we ourselves are weak but you are strong; this we also pray for, that you be made complete.



NAS 2 Corinthians 13:11 Finally, brethren, rejoice, be made complete, be comforted, be like-minded, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.



NAS Colossians 1:28 And we proclaim Him, admonishing every man and teaching every man with all wisdom, that we may present every man complete in Christ.



NAS James 1:4 And let endurance have its perfect result, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.



NAS 1 John 1:4 And these things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.







BB:>> But, unless I'm misunderstanding Kelly, he seems to more defend my and Justin's position when he said:

Quote:

We should note, however, that as good Jews they were careful to emphasize (e.g. Philo, Leg. Alleg. I. 38 ) that union with God?s being was not a natural possession of man but the effect of God?s drawing him to Himself?What is interesting about the present passage is the substitution of a metaphysical terminology for earlier language of sonship and fellowship, and the postponement of the realization of the promised grace to the consummation;>>





DW: Could you define what ?position? you are referring to?





BB:>>I, myself, have referred in a previous post to the "realization" in heaven of what we as believers currently possess in Christ and with Christ in us. And, we are currently in full possession of the fullness of the Godhead without being divine.>>



Me: But I would argue that ?realization? by its very definition deals with reality, and as such we await a future reality that is not fully ours now.



BB:>>There continues to be this scriptural struggle between who we are now, either in comparison or in contrast, with who we will be when we see Christ face to face. But, we're still making progress.>>



DW: Amen! I truly believe that semantics are causing apparent differences and that we may actually be much closer in our respective beliefs than we realize.



BB:>>Finally, David, I need to know if you're deliberately or inadvertantly avoiding the question I last addressed to you. If it's deliberate and you don't want to answer, say so and I'll quit asking. Once again, "...are you, at this point, in light of your defense, still possibly seeing TOm's LDS doctrine that "as God is, man may be," is the Biblically-based privilege of LDS"?>>



DW:>>I have avoided this questions for a couple of reasons: first, Tom?s understanding of God is not same as folk/popular Mormonism, but is rather what I would term a progressive/systematic understanding as represented by some current LDS thinkers like Blake Ostler and David Paulsen; and second, Tom?s understanding has been deeply influenced by the writings of the early Church Fathers. These two factors make it somewhat difficult to answer your question with either a yes or no; but, I suppose if one understands that the phrase ?Bible-based? is heavily influenced by differing hermeneutics, then I would have to say yes, and side with the motif ?as God is, man may be.? (BTW, this is not merely the ?privilege of LDS?; but is a very Catholic/Orthodox understanding of the Scriptures.)



Nice to have you back!



Grace and peace,



David