DW-



Thanks for your response. Moving on just a little then, is it your interpretation of the early Church fathers writings that they also believed and taught deification in an unlimited sense? Perhaps a better question: Where do they draw the line?



I have perused some of the quotes posted by yourself and TOm reagrding the subject. I did not find much that specifically interprets divinity as meaning a sharing of God's authority or creative powers. Rather the impression I get is similar to what I stated before, in that we can become LIKE God, incorrupt and holy. Do any sources you know of clarify this question any more?



Perhaps I missed some, and certainly I am not as well read in the subject. I have not, however, encountered any teaching similar to the LDS teachings and approach that man literally becomes a God, and that God was a man. I don't expect that you are trying to support this notion, either.



Thanks for you comments



Justin

Since deification has again become a topic of interest, I thought this thread deserved a bump, where TomNosser thoroughly decimates the Concerned Christian claims that deification is non-Biblical.



Some of the initial posts are amusing as Hick Preacher and Zeezrom trade barbs (I kind of winced when I read them), but thereafter, Tom's evidences are devastating.

However, the only evidence that really counts is biblical revelation. So where in the Bible do we find more than even the most vague allusion to man becoming just like God, as JS taught?

From skimming this thread, I've gathered that the reason people think the deification of man is impossible is because we cannot be equal with God because if we were, He would cease to be the Almighty God.



This is not so. First of all, we will never reach equality with God. We may reach where he is NOW, but never at one point in time will we have the same amount of glory as He has at that time. This is because God carries all the glory of his children (us) as well as His own glory. We will never have each other's glory or God's glory. Only our own, which can grow by our own actions and offspring. Therefore, we will never be equal with God at one point in time, but we may reach where he is NOW.



Also, it seems that people think that to be the Almighty God, He has to be more powerful than every existing creature throughout all the heavens and the earth. This is not so. Almighty means that he has all power within His laws, etc. (that's another discussion, so we won't go deep into it). However, God is virtually able to do everything. Just because someone else might be able to do virtually everything doesn't mean God is no longer Almighty. If two people are "perfect" at playing the violin, that doesn't mean neither are perfect at it.

respectfully, that is not what the term Almighty means, at least not the original word which meant Unlimited in Power.

Well, even according to your definition, someone else becoming like God would not remove his title of "Almighty."

FRBC-



One of the difficulties I have with the concept of a progressing God is that the concept of eternal progression is not logical in a universe of finite matter and energy. To put it more simply, if God has always been progressing, then He would have reached to point He is at an eternally long time ago. The worlds being created, and spirits to populate them would have long ago consumed all the energy and matter of the universe. All things would have been perfected long ago.



The real question (and please understand that I do not think this is doctrine) is whether or not the universe is finite, and also energy and matter. However, then another difficulty arises. If energy and matter are infinite, it is not possible to ever use all of either. This would render the dominion of God eternally small. He could not ever 'perfect' the universe, because there would always be an inifinite supply of unused matter and energy. What then would be the point?



The only way I know of is to resolve this through ex-nihilo creationism, or through atheism. If God created all, and only He (a non-matter)being is eternal then the limits of a physical universe and time cannot change or limit God. The only other solution I can conceive is that God does not exist at all and our tiny space in a random universe is perceived as non-random by us.



The same thing really applies to the existence of multiple Gods. If God had forefathers, in an eternal line- then the dominion of these Gods would encompass the entirety of matter and energy long ago (eternally so). The Gods would be Almighty over an inifinitely small space of the universe, and therefore infinitely un-important to the rest of empty space. If the universe consists of infinite matter and energy (uncreated but always existing) then the Gods would never have dominion over all of it. If they already do, then what is the point? They would have achieved perfection already, or they never will.



However, a non-physical God that created all out of nothing is not limited by this. The creation happened at a point in time and will end. God has complete dominion over this process and is therefore Almighty. He is also free to repeat the process as He will.



This places a large logical obstacle in front of the concept of deifaction of man in the LDS sense. If the Gods are continually perfecting a finite universe, and they will enable mankind to eventually participate in this process, as they have done before, then it would have already been done, or it never will.



I understand the point DW makes earlier in this thread. The concept of divinity makes sense that we can become incorrupt and free of the defilements of the world. We become divine like God. We can become one with God in spirit and like God. However, I cannot see that this means that mankind has a destiny to create new worlds and literally become a God over a new universe. The read I personally take from the Bible is one of limited deification and unity with a God that is already everywhere.



Just my thoughts.



Justin

QUOTE:
FRBC-



One of the difficulties I have with the concept of a progressing God is that the concept of eternal progression is not logical in a universe of finite matter and energy. To put it more simply, if God has always been progressing, then He would have reached to point He is at an eternally long time ago. The worlds being created, and spirits to populate them would have long ago consumed all the energy and matter of the universe

Hi Justin:



This just to let you know I haven't had the time to reply to your post on the other thread. I fully intend to. This is just a quick comment on the above post.



A quick read of the above indicates to me that you appear to be putting limitations on God and on the size of the Universe. I am surprised that an Evangelical Christian would place limitations on God's power since that theology states that the Universe was created out of nothing.



Can you advise the scientific basis for your belief on the "size of the Universe".



There are a number of theories, only one of which, that I am aware of, puts a limit on the size. That is the spherical theory which states that if the curvature is positive (spherical) the universe is closed and space is finite.



However, I would say the majority of astronomers believe that the curvature is negative (hyperbolic) or zero (flat), the universe is open and space is infinite.



Regardless, observations so far have not succeeded in determining whether the universe is open (of infinite extent in space) or closed (of finite extent)



Regards,



aussietbm

QUOTE:
From skimming this thread, I've gathered that the reason people think the deification of man is impossible is because we cannot be equal with God because if we were, He would cease to be the Almighty God.

I have just been skimming too :~) , but your post prompted a question for me...If I become a God (hypothetically), and I create my own world, and people worship me, won't that take away from Almighty God's glory? Or would my creation worship God Almighty and not me?

I was reading through some other posts and I came across this quote from Bruce McConkie.

QUOTE:
...God himself, the Father of us all, is a glorified, exalted, immortal, resurrected man! Bruce McConkie, 1966, Mormon Doctrine, p. 643.

Are eternal and immortal the same thing? If the Mormon God was once a man, how can he be eternal? The God I have read about in the Bible is supposed to have no beginning and no end, right? I don't see how calling God an immortal man isn't diminishing him from what He has said He is. :?

Well said, LiK.